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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:01 pm 
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Sebastian did a great article with his Ork Nob, but basically with metallics you use the metallic as the base coat (usually a silver) and then apply juices of normal non-metallic paint over it in the colour you want it to be (e.g. do many juices of tans to get a brass effect, or juices of brown and black to give an oily smoky look).


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:13 pm 
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For those of you without that White Dwarf, there's an interactive version on the Oz website:
http://www.games-workshop.com.au/community/goldendemon/hobby/ork_nob_painting.htm


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:12 am 
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Hey I know this ground has basically been covered before, but I was wondering about the specifics of the consistency and amount of paint used for each juice.

So far the only way I have managed a perfectly smooth gradient with a perfectly smooth surface is by diluting the paint down until it's so thin that you can't see the effects of each individual juice - you only start to get some colour after 4 layers or so. I've tried with more paint in the mix (obviously still thinner than wash consistency) and less volume on the brush but it just doesn't give the same results.

So I guess what I'm asking is is it possible to get a perfectly chalk-less finish with juices where you can see the paint you've put on, or do the masters actually paint their whole mini in super-diluted juices?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:23 am 
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Correct me if im wrong, but from what ive picked up it seems to be starting with a lighter colour, blending down with the darker colours, then highlighting the fine points and blending that in? Would that be correct?

Ive been tending to use a well to put a little paint in and dilute heavily to tinted water like a wash. Perhaps im diluting too much. It takes ages but the blends are better.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:31 am 
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agentmolar wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but from what ive picked up it seems to be starting with a lighter colour, blending down with the darker colours, then highlighting the fine points and blending that in? Would that be correct?

Ive been tending to use a well to put a little paint in and dilute heavily to tinted water like a wash. Perhaps im diluting too much. It takes ages but the blends are better.


Thats correct. The more diluted it is and the more layers you apply the better it would probably look. I dilute it to about 1:20 paint to water. It works very well for me! I have found that you need fresh water to do it though as sometimes dirty water can create that wave effect on the surface.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Ok, since I missed out on any awards in the EC last weekend, I know I need to try a few new techniques in order to be more competitive. So I've tried this one with some degree of success but have a question...

My test model is a Dark Elf and I'm working on his robes. The shading worked really well then I started on the highlights. The first colour (Warlock Purple) worked well, can't remember how many layers I put on but the effect worked for a first effort. Then the next colour I put on was Tentacle Pink. This was where I had problems, it ended up going chalky. The question is, is this because I didn't have the paint thin enough (someone led to this earlier) or is it the paint?

I found the general technique quite easy, you just have to have patience. I'm used to doing harsher highlights (as people who saw my entries would have seen - Green Knight and a Grail Reliquae unit) and this is far more subtle.

Thanks for the tutorial

Zherroth

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:34 pm 
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Sorry to jump on this thread so late. I've been reading various posts from different people mentioning 'juices' since joining this forum. However when reading Seb's explanation of this technique I'm struggling to see the difference with what I, and many other painters have been doing for some time ...that is layering. I'll explain more below...

automaton wrote:
well it is a form of layering, sort of - but when one talks about 'layering' as a painting technique, it usually refers to the method where you go from a dark tone to a light tone by painting lots of layers gradually increasing in lightness one over the other, gradually withdrawing the area covered with each layer until there is only a tiny final highlight of the lightest colour. ....snip...

But this method is quite different from that, because you are not painting single, opaque layers, but many layers with very translucent paint to slowly build up the opacity. ...snip...

So you see the difference?


No, not really. The way I've been taught to use layering is virtually identical to what you are calling 'juicing'. That is to use translucent paint to gradually build up highlights and shading while progressively mixing the paint to a lighter or darker shade. There may be a couple or several layers before changing the paint mix. To me the only layering where the paint is opaque and therefore where you can see the colour changes, if you look closely enough, is bad layering (or speed layering! :wink:).


automaton wrote:
The other benefit of the juices is that you are not so restricted in the colours you use: you can use completely different colours at any stage in the process...maybe you might want to use red as the first juice, then sway to green for some nuances in the shadows, then yellow to highlight...you can use whatever colour at any point in the process, rather than worrying about having to mix things together to take gradual steps as you would in layering. Plus the colours will retain their integrity using juices, because they don't need to be mixed in the layering way. You see what I mean? The flexibility in colour use is what I enjoy so much about this technique, when I compare it with the old layering technique I used to use.


This use of other colours for shading is really where the technique you are trying to describe begins to differ from standard layering. To me this has always been a final step; I'd layer using 3 to 5 paints, and mixes of those paints, of essentially the same colour but differing darkness/lightness. Once this process was complete I'd then add some character (or extra depth) to the mini by applying contrasting very thin and very localised 'washes' or 'stains'. Pretty much what you're describing, but as a final stage. ...and when I say washes I'm only really referring to the thinness of the paint.

I guess what I'm getting at is that perhaps the term 'juicing' should be restricted to the use of very thin contrasting colours as highlights/shades? The term layering would then be restricted to a single hue of paint (eg. dark green through medium green through light green).

I'm seeing a fair bit of overlap in your definition of 'juicing' and my (and a lot of the mini painting world's) definition of layering. This is leading to me reading people's descriptions of their work and thinking "Juicing? What? ...you're layering?".

Anyway, the technique is good but it is a variant on layering and I'm just trying to clarify semantics.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Well, if we take the Vallejo Acrylic article as a base point
It mentions both solid and transparent layering
So maybe it would be possible to say how it differs from that

http://www.ttfxmedia.com/vallejo/cgi-bin/_modelis.asp?p1=ing&p2=modelcolortecnicas#modelcolortecnica10

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:03 am 
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To add to the confusion they actually only use the term layering to describe highlighting with thin layers of a single colour. What I'd describe as layering (and I think what most people mean) is a combination of that and what they're actually calling feathering.

I've always thought of feathering as a particular brush technique (perpendicular to the layers) of lightly blending the layers together...

It's not getting any more clear is it!? :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:31 am 
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I'm with you there mate, really can't see the difference in GOOD layering and juicing and I personally have been naturally leaning towards thinner and thinner paints anyway...

Esentially I think they are teh same think, but juicing seems to take it a step further in that you have even thinner layers and as you mentioned you can add colour at any point by switching the layer colour, but you could do this with layering anyway, if teh layers were thin enough.

I think the term "juice" was just coined so people imediately know what the paint consistency is, where layering could be anything. In this way I see "Juicing" as a sub-techniqe to layering, rather than another whole technique in itsself.

in anycase, it's a great article and you can learn allot by experimenting with this sort of thing. As mentioned I was leaning naturally towards this sort of thing anyway, using more and more layers of thinner paints to paint my display pieces, but it helps to have it written.

The way I see it I need to work on lighting and my colour inclusions (using different colours to shade with for more depth, sickly feeling finish etc, etc...) these days to improve and step up to the next level...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:32 pm 
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hey guys, yeah david I totally take your point - there are certainly a lot of similarities and crossover or common ground between layering and 'juices'. Maybe it's easier to think of them not as separate techniques, but different ways of applying a similar technique.

For me, the key difference comes with the colours: when using juices, I feel like I am much more free in the colours I can use. When layering, it feels like you are constricted a bit, and bound into using the next step up in lightness of whatever colour you happen to be using. When I used to layer, I would start with a certian colour, then add a little bleached bone - paint a lyer. Add a little more bleached bone to the mix - paint another layer. Add a bit more bleached bone - paint another layer. And so on, 20 times or something! But the way I paint now, I can completely change the hue in the lights or the shadows - there isn't that feeling of being bound into the necessary steps.

Also, there are not so many steps required. I used to have 20+ 'steps' of gradually lighter colour....but using juices, I usually have 5 or 6 maximum. And if you are really serious about using good technique, you can do it it 1 step - go straight from black to white with no intermediate colours in between. But that is only for the hardcore technicians! 8) hahha

For me, the most important part is the freedom. I don't stay in such a linear sequence anyway, of going from dark to light or whatever. Instead, I add different tints and tones constantly to slightly modify the colour at certain stages, before continuing with shading or highlights.

So anyway....I think you are right, that there is definately a lot of common ground between layering and juicing, and also feathering - it's like a three point triangle, and most people's painting technique is somewhere in the middle of all three. Mine used to be more between layering and feathering, but now I would say I am closer to juices, with a little feathering.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:14 pm 
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Regardless of technique... i need more motivation and practice!! :D :D :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:30 pm 
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For me, the key difference comes with the colours: when using juices, I feel like I am much more free in the colours I can use. When layering, it feels like you are constricted a bit, and bound into using the next step up in lightness of whatever colour you happen to be using. When I used to layer, I would start with a certian colour, then add a little bleached bone - paint a lyer. Add a little more bleached bone to the mix - paint another layer. Add a bit more bleached bone - paint another layer. And so on, 20 times or something! But the way I paint now, I can completely change the hue in the lights or the shadows - there isn't that feeling of being bound into the necessary steps.


in essence though, are you not just layering with thin paint (which one should do for good results anyway) and adding different colours to gain your hues?

I understand what you are saying and I am greatfull that the article was written, the adding of hues is definately something I wasn't really doing before now and am just getting into, but isn't it essencially the same technique? I cannot see personally that the technique has changed, rather the colours used...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:54 pm 
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I think all techniques can be said to be 'layering' - highlights and shadows are a fundamental part of painting minis, so there has got to be some sort of layers of light vs. dark to create that.

But for me, painting this way with 'juices' is very different from the form of ;ayering I used previously. That is because of the translucency part: before, the way I used to layer, translucency didn't come into it. I feathered the edge of the layer, but each layer was still completely opaque - that was why I needed so many layers to create a decent transition from dark to light.

But with the new method, I rely on the translucency of the dilute paint to gradually meld the two colours together, making a bigger jump in tonal value and cutting out those in-between gradual stages.

So that is the key difference for me. But everyone paints in a different way - and if you and david were already using the translucency, then I guess you were already using a technique more similar to the 'juices' method than what I call layering.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:00 pm 
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An illustration of the difference can be seen with a surface that changes colour - like a cloak going from red at the top to blue at the bottom for example. That would have been a total nightmare for me, using my old technique. The cloak needs to be highlighted and shaded all at the same time, so I would I would have had to have 6 or 7 different (6 or 7 for highlights and another 6 or 7 for shading) hues on the palette, gradually adding a different lighter or darker colour to each as I went, and trying to blend all those different stages one by one into each other as I went...it would have been absolutely horrible, and probably disastrous. But using the 'blending through transparency' method, with the very dilute paints, it no longer poses a problem, because you can use the translucent properties to create the colour transition for you. You can have one red colour and one blue colour, and blend the colours into each other on the mini by painting overlapping layers.

SO maybe that is a demonstration of the difference, and the benefits of the juices method.

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